Introducing Jemima Dun and the session

G'day, and welcome to the National Virtual Expo and this session on what's uni all about anyway. I'm your host for this session, Rob Malicki. I'm coming to you today from Gadigal Land in Sydney, and I'm joined by performer, actress, musician, and general legend, Jemima Dun, live from London. Jemima, thanks for joining me at the National Virtual Expo.

Guest: Thank you so much, Rob. It's lovely to chat with you as always.

Rob: It's super good to have you here. But I must admit, what time is it in London right now?

Guest: You don't want to know. It's currently five in the morning. You're lucky I like talking to you, but it's always good to be here, so no worries about that. I'll get some sleep.

Rob: You are a great friend and I really appreciate you stepping up to do this for people Australia-wide. Because when I was thinking about the National Virtual Expo and thinking about university, trying to decide what to do after school, I thought: how could I get to talk to someone who has been through a really unique experience, who has experienced different types of education, done interesting things both in class and outside of class, and is now doing very cool stuff? And you were the person that came to mind. So thanks for agreeing to do this.

Guest: Thank you so much. That's lovely. I love that I'm the person that came to mind when you thought of that.

Rob: So where are you right now? We've given away that you're in London, but we're going to get to the university stuff in a moment. Let's just start there.

Guest: I'm in London. I was based in India for a pretty long time, and I still go there because I have friends and my partner is based there. But I realised career-wise it's probably a lot better for me to be in the UK, and luckily my father is from the UK so I have a passport, which means I can be here. I've only been here about a month, so I'm just setting myself up. I did a theatre degree, so I'm here to chase up opportunities in the arts. I'm currently reaching out to agents and auditioning for theatre plays, just trying to get amongst it, because London is such a vibrant place for the arts, for theatre, and for film. Hopefully over the next year I'll be building up quite a profile.

Rob: I love it. I'm a massive fan of your work. And just for those people watching along at home: we do have a live chat going, so if you're watching on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or YouTube, drop your questions in. If we don't get to them during the session, we will answer every question via the Uni Discord, details in the description below. And for parents, there's a Facebook group for you. Whether you've got a specific question for Jemima, you're interested in a particular uni, or something general about uni, drop it in and every question will get an answer. And just to flag: even though Jemima's background is in theatre, this session is for everyone. Whether you're interested in engineering, science, or anything else, we're going to be talking very broadly about uni life.

Jemima's winding path through university

Guest: My journey wasn't the path I necessarily wanted when I started uni. I think there's obviously a pressure at the end of the year to get into the uni you want, and I'm sure everyone is feeling that at the moment. I very much wanted to start drama school straight away, which means auditioning at the end of Year 12. I was a little bit naive: I thought I'd audition for two top-tier drama universities and get into one of them. Not that you shouldn't go for what you want to do, but you do need to be a little bit realistic about your options. I didn't get into either of those universities and felt completely lost.

Rob: Is the ATAR a thing across the board in Australia? In Victoria you get an ATAR, is that valid elsewhere?

Guest: Yeah, and it's valid for one year. I don't want people to feel that getting an amazing ATAR is their only path to uni, because it's just not true. But at that time I didn't have any other options apart from using my ATAR to get into a university. I got a pretty decent score, so I decided to go to Monash to do a general arts degree, and I have absolutely no regrets about that. It was a chance to further my learning, make friends, and start my journey outside of high school. I had a pretty good time at Monash. It wasn't the path I necessarily wanted to go down, but I got to go on a Monash camp, meet a lot of cool people, and go to the traditional tutorials and classes I wouldn't have experienced if I'd gone straight into drama school. But after six months I decided: I actually don't want to be in a regular university. I want to go to drama school. That was not a compromise I was willing to make.

Guest: So, to my mum's despair, I left Monash after six months. She was very worried at the time. She's fine now, but she was like, "What are you going to do if you leave university?" And I said I was going to audition at the end of the year. I didn't want to spend another six months doing something I didn't feel passionate about. So I trained to become a swim teacher, made some money, saved up, and did auditions for the following year. I got accepted into Federation University in Ballarat to study music theatre, which was at the time a big dream. We were then pretty mixed as cohorts: actors, music theatre students, musicians. And I felt a real pull towards acting. So in the middle of the year I asked my teachers if I could join the acting group. I auditioned, they said yes, and I got to join them for the next six months.

Guest: At the end of that year I wanted a bit more of an adventure. I had lived in Victoria my whole life and I thought I'd love to attend a uni outside of my home state. So I auditioned for the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts in Perth. Again, it was a story of not necessarily getting what I wanted but being led to amazing things. I wanted to be in the acting cohort, but there was a relatively new Bachelor of Performing Arts, where you major in performance making: devising, directing, and writing as well as acting. I was offered a place in that and I thought, it's an adventure, I'm going to give it a go. And I'm so glad I did, because that led me to a New Colombo Plan scholarship and the opportunity to study at a school in Singapore called the Intercultural Theatre Institute, which was life-changing. My journey was very much non-traditional. It wasn't from A to B, but it was the right path for me. And I think that is what's so cool about uni: you don't know what's going to happen until you give it a go.

Rob: I love this so much, because it illustrates something people going into this for the first time don't realise: the path is behind you. When we're moving forward we don't know where we're going. You're just opening a door, going through, and if it's not for you, you back out and try another door. It's only in retrospect that you look back and think, oh yeah, all of that kind of led me to where I am now.

Guest: Absolutely. You have to follow that path and not hate yourself for moving on from things. Giving up is often just one door closing and another one opening.

Rob: There is no path in front of you. It's okay to completely change what degree you study, change universities, change states. And one day that might lead you to be sitting in London at five in the morning talking to someone back in Australia. In the macro: you don't have to have it all figured out. You don't even really need to have the first step figured out. You can take a gap year. You can start in a general degree and try stuff until you find something you enjoy. You can become a swim teacher for a while before you go and audition for the thing you really want. That's totally okay.

Guest: Absolutely. People feel so pressured in high school to have their life laid out for them. High school has so many boundaries, and you don't actually get a chance to find your independence and your passions. People need to know there are options after high school: take a gap year, get some life experience outside of that structure, or start a general degree if you have an inkling about what you want to do but aren't fully committed. The worst thing that can happen is it leads you to a different subject or topic you want to explore, and that's not even a bad thing.

Rob: To me it's the start of the second quarter. The first quarter of your life is really about other people: your parents, your school telling you what to do. You get to the second quarter and suddenly it's about you for the very first time. You're starting from scratch. You can't have it all figured out, and it's completely normal to try stuff and change. The more we encourage people to do that, the happier humans we're going to end up on this planet.

Guest: Absolutely. Having a completely straight path is just not realistic. The less pressure we put on people, the more freedom and excitement they're going to feel to go and pursue something.

Rob: And the one thing that really stands out in your story, Jemima, is that you didn't settle. You didn't start a degree, think "I'm not enjoying this, but I've already done six months so I'll just finish it." You made the hard call to move on, and for a lot of people that takes a lot of courage. But it's almost always the right call to do what your intuition tells you.

Guest: Absolutely. Thank you.

What it's actually like to study at university

Rob: So let's go back to that first experience going into arts at Monash. What is it actually like to study at uni? Let's jump into traditional campus life: what was that experience like?

Guest: It was pretty cool. I wasn't expecting a traditional approach to uni, but I actually enjoy structure, and I think people going straight from high school will enjoy that structure as well. The main difference is that you have a lot more independence at university. You're not going to get constantly prompted about assignments or work projects. You really have to be the leader and motivate yourself. It's a similar structure to high school in that you'll have tutorials where you discuss subjects and lectures where you take in all the information for your course, but then you have to take initiative from there. The main difference for me coming straight out of high school was that I still had things to show up to and take responsibility for, but I also had to motivate myself to submit things and do my best. You're not going to get that feedback chasing you down. You have to take responsibility for your own learning a lot more than in high school.

Rob: That's right. Every degree is different. You might have in-person lectures in a big theatre with hundreds of people, or at a smaller university it might be a class of twenty, or it might be delivered online. Then you've got tutorials: those small, interactive classes. And then practical elements: if you're doing sciences you might be in a laboratory; if you're doing performing arts I imagine you're doing a lot of studio work and rehearsals. You want to talk to that a bit from your experience at WAAPA?

Guest: Yeah. It's quite funny because a drama school is kind of the opposite of how I naturally work. I enjoy structure and boundaries to play within, but a drama school says here's your project, now roll with it. I remember struggling when I was studying in Singapore because a lot of people were taking the chance to travel on weekends, whereas I was constantly at school on weekends because there was no defined boundary. You just rehearse until it feels right, and it's never going to be perfect. That was a good learning experience. Whereas in traditional uni settings you have those boundaries: here is the format you need to follow, here is all the information you'll draw from during this period.

Guest: I would also recommend going in person if you can. Whether it's a small group or a big group, online lectures just don't hold your attention the same way because there's no accountability. You'll get distracted, and it's not that the content isn't interesting. You just don't have that sense of: I need to be present, I need to be listening. So if you can go in person, please do it, for your own sake.

Rob: It doesn't matter how good the academic is, they'll never be as compelling as a cat riding on a robotic vacuum cleaner. We're not giving anything away here, we're in the age of devices. People will constantly have access to TikTok, Instagram, YouTube: anything that presents itself as more interesting than the person in front of you. A live lecture is way more beneficial because you hold yourself accountable.

Guest: Yeah, and it goes back to responsibility. You're there because you want to be there. You've put yourself forward, you've applied. They expect you to take initiative, to ask for help when you need it. They're happy to help, but they're not going to chase you up if you fall behind. It is your responsibility to stay on top of it and ask for assistance.

Making friends and navigating the social side of campus

Rob: The social interactions at university are very different from school, aren't they?

Guest: Absolutely. Socially it can be a massive pressure going to university. I went on a Monash camp before classes started and that was huge for me. I honestly don't have anyone I kept in touch with from Monash years later, but that's fine: it was just the experience of getting a chance to meet people from different backgrounds who had all come to study the same thing, or different things, with the same goal and the same vision. It's so important to have that chance to be in conversation with those people and have fun. We actually played a version of Quidditch: running around with broomsticks, and I got hit directly in the nose with one of the balls, which was hilarious because I just immediately started crying. Great first impression. But the main thing is it's about fun. They want you to socialise. It doesn't mean you have to meet your friends for life, but these are people you're going to see on campus, people you'll have classes and tutorials with. It's important to put yourself out there socially and give yourself the best shot at feeling comfortable and happy on campus.

Rob: Not every university does a camp like Monash, but every uni absolutely does orientation and that is essential to get to. Unless you genuinely can't make it, get there and get into as much as you can, because it just makes you feel comfortable. Orientation takes different forms at different universities, but quite often there'll be lectures, stands on campus, activities, games, and social events. Just go in and do as much as you can, because you never know who you're going to meet. At minimum you'll explore the place where you'll be spending a lot of time and start to feel a sense of ownership over it, which will help once you actually start your classes.

Guest: I absolutely agree. Orientation is one of your chances to grab onto something that will help you feel happy and grounded during your time at university. They also promote a lot of clubs at orientation, and I'd encourage you to get involved. Usually they're free or very cheap to join, so you can be part of something that aligns with you. There are clubs for so many different groups: people passionate about religion, people passionate about Harry Potter, just things you can jump into and say, I have a group of people who feel passionate about what I feel passionate about. That's so important when you first start university.

Rob: I joined the mountaineering club when I started uni in Sydney. No mountaineering happens in Sydney, but it seemed like a great idea at the time. I never heard from the mountaineering society again, but I did get involved in other clubs and societies. Bushwalking ended up being a massive one for me. And one of the things people don't realise about the social scene at uni is just how expansive the clubs and societies network is at most institutions. You can really find your people there, and it's not just about fun. It's also an opportunity to take on a leadership role that looks genuinely impressive on a resume.

Guest: Yeah, so good. You can start a club.

Rob: I started a club. I started the Student Exchange Club at Macquarie Uni back in 1999, and it's still going. We called it Club X. It was a social club: students who had been on exchange would get involved with students coming to Macquarie on exchange, we'd take them on trips around the city, organise all sorts of social activities. It was great fun, and in the end that was one of the things that got me my first job. Not my science degree: the fact that I set up and ran a club. That actually led me to sitting where I am right now.

Guest: That's wild. That's exactly it: it's about taking initiative, personally as well as with your education. A degree is amazing and it's amazing to have a qualification. But you go out into the world and you say, this is who I am, and it's not just going to be a piece of paper. It's going to be: I did this while I was at uni because it made me feel good about myself, made me feel passionate, made me connect with people I wouldn't have connected with otherwise.

Rob: Getting a job is about human interaction. We think it's about having a resume and a qualification that matches a job description, but in fact it's a purely human interaction: you and me talking about what's required in this role and seeing if we'll get along.

Guest: Absolutely. And with degrees, a lot of people are getting them. So you're not going to be standing out against people who don't have a degree: you're going to be up against people who also have a degree and something else to bring to the table. That has to be who you are and what you care about and why you want to be part of that organisation or company.

Moving away from home for university

Rob: Let's talk about moving for uni, because you've obviously had a number of different experiences: going down to Fed Uni and then moving west to Perth. Can you talk through what that experience is like, and maybe any advice for people who are considering it?

Guest: It is scary. It is scary as hell moving away for the first time, whether you're moving somewhere in the same state or interstate. I went to Ballarat for the first time, a two-hour drive from my home in Frankston, and that was still a big thing. I couldn't see my family during the week and that can get really lonely and scary. And that is exactly the point of socialisation: I don't want people to feel like they have to find their tribe forever. There's such pressure to be like, these are my people for life. You will stay in someone's life if they are the right fit for you and you hold each other up.

Guest: Don't put the pressure on yourself that you need to solidify friendships immediately. The main part of socialising is: this person is here at the same point in time as me, we're both potentially away from home, we're both in the same boat. Let's just be in it together and see what happens. If you make lifelong friendships, amazing. If you don't, no pressure. It's about having a community for that point in time, because community is so important. At Fed Uni I met some really cool people because I went to the uni parties where, especially in the arts, a lot of cohorts would fundraise for their classes by running events. That was a cool way of merging different courses. You might not necessarily get along with everyone in your immediate class, but you'll find other people in a similar area who you do get along with. Be open to outside your immediate group. Be open to other people who are also here finding their way. Just put yourself in situations where you are open socially.

Rob: We have this perception that university is like the American college movie: extroverts, parties, beautiful people getting together. That's about one percent. For the rest of us mere mortals we're looking for our place. But what I love about universities is the incredible diversity. Your people are there, whether you're a geek about Star Wars, you're into mathematics and sciences, or whether you're creative. Introvert, extrovert: it doesn't matter. Your people are there.

Guest: Absolutely. It's a numbers game. There are so many people who go to uni each year. You don't need to feel let down if the people in your immediate space are not for you. You will find them. A lot of it is about clubs: joining communities that feel passionate about the same things you do. And just without pressure, go out and be social in whichever way and capacity you feel comfortable, and take up the opportunities that arise. The worst that can happen is you walk away without making a friend, and that's okay. But nine out of ten times you will meet someone you have a nice conversation with and feel like, okay, this could be someone I can go through uni with.

Rob: Can I speak directly to the introverts? There are going to be a lot of introverts watching this. You're not broken. You represent a huge part of the population, including at university. Ignore the stereotypes you've seen on your phone. And if you're anxious about university and finding your people, universities run an unlimited number of activities to support people who are uncomfortable just walking into a bar and chatting with strangers. That certainly didn't work for me. Later this afternoon we're doing a session on student confidence with Anita van Rooyen, talking about making confident decisions and building confidence and finding your people. You'll find these sorts of things at university if you look for them. And in the end, if you don't get involved, there's only one person to blame.

Guest: For sure. And take the pressure off. Don't feel like you need to find people, but putting yourself out there is such a big thing and you should be proud of yourself for doing it. I don't know a lot of people who love walking into a room of strangers. Other people are going to be awkward too. Other people are going to be waiting for someone to come and say hi. The worst thing that happens is you feel a bit of an idiot, and that's okay. We all feel like that, and then you move on. You will always regret not giving yourself a chance, not giving someone else a chance to have a conversation. Most people go to uni without knowing a lot of people. Just take the pressure off, put yourself out there, and reward yourself for the small things. "I went and had a conversation with someone and I started that conversation." That is amazing. It's okay to not win every time you put yourself out there. That's just part of life, and you're going to be a lot happier at uni if you just give yourself a go.

Rob: Making friends is literally the number one concern of people going into university, statistically. They will be there. As long as you keep looking, you'll get there.

Balancing study, wellbeing, and campus life

Rob: Let's talk about the balance between formal classes, the work you need to do, and social life. You come from performing arts where you're doing more project-based work, but can you talk about what that balance looks like?

Guest: I am probably the wrong person to ask because there is no limit in performing arts. When we were doing a play I would just punish myself: drill it and drill it, spend nights and weekends at school trying to get it right, whereas the healthier approach was to trust that it's all going to be okay. Socialising and tending to your mental health actually make you better at university. Sometimes people feel like they can't go for a drink with friends or go to this club event because they need to study. I rarely meet happy people who are constantly studying, myself included. It's important to say: I'm going to do a little bit of work, and then I get to reward myself. I get to go for a walk, speak with a friend, go out for a drink with people at uni. That is the balance you need to hold if you want to maintain a healthy uni life.

Guest: Obviously do the work: make sure you go through all your content and respond to it in your own way. But also give yourself boundaries. I struggled going from the very structured environment of high school to a place where you have free reign. Give yourself your own structure. Tell yourself: I'm going to put on a timer for an hour and read over this and write my notes about it, and then regardless of how much I've accomplished, I'm going to go for a walk or meet someone. You need to hold that balance and hold yourself accountable, because otherwise you'll just be stressed and won't actually enjoy uni life. Uni life is about enjoyment, about learning and exploring and meeting people on the same journey as you. Allow time for social life and for mental health breaks because that overall is going to keep you sane.

Rob: I love how you framed that. At the start of a semester, your lecturer will tell you the workload: maybe you've got a test in week three, an assignment in week six, a performance in week twelve. Some people will walk out of that first class and head straight to the library to start working on their assignments. Most normal human beings will probably procrastinate. And then you've got the other people who do nothing until the night before and pull an all-nighter to get the work done. You've got the full spectrum, and it's part of the exploration to figure out where you sit on it. But the one critical thing to remember is: if you're struggling with something, universities have incredible support services. Whether the content is too hard, your mental health is suffering, or you need time out, the services are there if you look for them and ask for help.

Guest: You're absolutely right. It's about being able to ask for help. I think sometimes there's this tendency, maybe an Australian thing, to think: I'll be right, just push it down. But that is quite problematic. When I was at WAAPA I saw a psychologist regularly, provided by the university, because it just helped me in a place where I was away from family and struggling with tasks or struggling socially, and I needed someone to talk to. I hope people don't feel stigmatised doing that, because it's just taking care of yourself the same way you have a shower: you want your brain to be free for your studies, your social life, for just feeling good every day. You can access those things, and you should.

Guest: And same with physical health: a lot of the time people develop mental health problems because they're not dealing with their body. Do something that makes you happy. I hate cardio, so I do yoga: I'm moving my body and I feel good. If you like walking or playing sport, there are so many options. At my uni there was a netball team that met up every week. There are so many avenues for you to take care of yourself and in doing so take care of your productivity. You're going to be more productive if you're happy and well.

Rob: The way I like to look at it: we don't ask for help because we feel like a failure. Flip that over. Asking for help is actually you going out, getting someone else to take on part of your problem, and saying: here is all the stuff I'm struggling with, now go and do something about it to help make it easier for me. Those support services are there and you should delegate to them.

Guest: A problem shared is a problem halved. It's so true. It doesn't mean anything tangible has changed about the problem, but putting it out there is a well-needed relief for your brain. You can think: maybe it's not so scary if I say it out loud. Maybe I can deal with this now. People want to help nine out of ten times. The people on campus who are there for the express purpose of helping you: they want to help. They're going to be thrilled that you've reached out. Use it.

International exchange and the New Colombo Plan

Rob: One of the things I'd love to get to, Jemima, because this is something you did really well, is the other opportunities university has to offer. I'd love to talk about your experience doing an exchange programme and about the New Colombo Plan scholarship as well. We've got about five to ten minutes left, so let's dive in.

Guest: For anyone who wants to hear more about the New Colombo Plan, Rob has an amazing series of videos about it on YouTube.

Rob: Still up there somewhere, yes. The New Colombo Plan is a scholarship programme from the Australian government. Probably the best opportunity out there if it's right for you: scholarships of up to $110,000 for you to go and travel around the Indo-Pacific, have a study experience, do an internship or practical placement, and get mentored. It is utterly remarkable. But let's also talk about the exchange component, Jemima, because that's something accessible to a lot more people than the NCP, which is a bit more competitive. Many students can go and do an exchange without having to win a scholarship.

Guest: Do it. Just do it. It changed my life. It turned things upside down educationally, socially, and culturally: you get to experience what you're doing in a different culture, and you can't buy that. I submitted my application pretty much on a whim: I was like, okay, it would be a great opportunity to go overseas for three months, I don't know. And I got it. Because a lot of students are eligible for exchange, don't stress about it being super competitive. It is accessible. I had such low expectations going in: I thought, oh, it'll be fun, I'm going to Singapore for the first time, great. And it completely changed the trajectory of what I want to do and who I want to be as an artist. You really can't explain how valuable that experience is. Anyone with even the slightest interest in seeing a different culture or a different way of expressing what you do: do it. You do get a decent amount of funding for it, so a lot of it is not out of pocket. It's a chance for a largely funded experience overseas that could potentially change the trajectory of your career.

Rob: Every university does it slightly differently, but there are all different types of international study experiences. Some are very short: just a couple of weeks. Some are really long, like the New Colombo Plan, up to 19 months in the Indo-Pacific region. We're actually doing a whole session on this a little bit later in the week with Amy Ryan from the University of Sydney, talking about all the different types of international study experiences available as part of a university degree. But as we were talking about earlier, Jemima: you end up with a degree, a club leadership experience, an overseas exchange, and an internship. You become a lot more unique and employable when it comes to getting that job at the end.

Guest: Absolutely. You've got to make yourself stand apart from other applicants. If not for just the experience itself, which is life-changing, do it for the fact that you're going to put it on your resume and people are going to look at you and say: okay, this person knows a bit about the world, they've gone out and made an effort to connect with another culture. And the NCP in particular really focuses on connections between Australia and our neighbouring regions in the Indo-Pacific. That's a price-level offer right there.

Looking back: being brave and following your gut

Rob: Last couple of things as we come towards the end. Is there anything in your unique experience that was a bit different or unexpected? And is there anything, looking back, that you didn't do at uni that you now think would have been cool to get involved in?

Guest: It's not so much something I didn't do: it was more about who I wasn't as a person. I would just encourage people to be brave. And that does not mean being successful. I think that's what I struggled with: I thought I had to be good to share something, and that if I don't try, I don't fail. Be brave. It doesn't matter if you put yourself out there and it doesn't work out, or you feel embarrassed, or you don't get the response you wanted. Just go out there and do it. Because looking back on my time at uni, I was younger then and a little bit more inside myself. I would love to have been in that experience again with a bit more wisdom and thought: who cares what happens, as long as you're putting yourself out there and you're being brave, you're winning.

Rob: Just do it. And you know, in some of those classes at uni you're going to see mature students, my age or even older, sitting down the front being enthusiastic because they really want to be there. You don't have to be that extreme. This is literally just a journey of discovery. And I'd say that's probably the biggest takeaway for me after walking in this space for 25 years: there is this impression that if you go into a Bachelor of Economics, at the end you'll walk out and be an economist and it's a concrete, immovable path. It's just not true. Even if you're in that Bachelor of Economics, you will discover things that fascinate you and things that bore the hell out of you, and it's that constant process of finding what you enjoy and doing more of it. And who knows, it might one day lead you to London at five in the morning talking to people back home in Australia. Your journey has been really organic, Jemima. You've followed your nose, pushed yourself, tried things, had stuff not work out, ended up in India for a number of years: that was never on Frankston Jemima's radar, right?

Guest: Not at all. Absolutely. Just follow your gut. Trust yourself. You don't need to know exactly what you want to do: go out and try something, and the worst thing that happens is you discover something else. And that's a massive win. So just go out there, do it, be brave, try things, style things out. That's all part of the experience, and you will find your right path because of it.

Rob: My guest has been actress, performer, musician, and all-round legend, Jemima Dun. Jemima, I've dropped some of your handles in the session description below for anyone who wants to look you up and find out what you're up to. I'm sorry I haven't got to any questions: I've been a little self-indulgent, but I haven't caught up with you in a long time and it's been nice to hear more of your story. And I don't know if I mentioned this in conversation, but I'm going to be in London later in the year, so I look forward to catching up for lunch and a refreshing ale somewhere.

Guest: Oh my God, call me. Let's do it. I think this might actually be the first time we'd be meeting in person, even though we've talked online for years.

Rob: Exactly. Thanks so much for joining me at the National Virtual Expo. It's been great chatting with you.

Guest: Thank you. So good to see you again.

Rob: And for those of you watching along, thanks so much for joining. Any questions that have come in throughout this session will be put into the Discord and the Facebook group, and we'll make sure we answer absolutely everything. The full session catalogue is down below: it's loaded with amazing stuff. This afternoon we've got great sessions on building your confidence and making decisions, a great session on managing money as a school leaver, and alongside all of that we've got sessions on every single university, gap years, travelling as part of your degree, and different study areas. This is a massive week and I'll be seeing you throughout. Thanks for joining us at this session.