Introducing Thomas and his PhD research

Rob: Welcome to the National Virtual Expo. I'm really stoked to have you here. Uni is such a journey and you've been on quite the journey. Before we go back and talk about that, where are you up to right now in your studies?

Guest: Thank you very much, Rob. It's a pleasure to be here. Hopefully coming to the end of my university journey -- this is year number nine for me. I'm in the fourth year of my PhD in biomedical engineering.

Rob: That might make some people shudder at the idea of being at uni for ten years.

Guest: It's something that I didn't plan on. I did a master's degree in biomedical engineering, and the way that Flinders University does that is a combined degree. So rather than doing a four-year honours and then a two-year master's, which is standard, they mash them up into one. That really excited me because at that point in high school I thought there's no way I'm going to do a PhD. I'll do my five years, I'll get out. But then I ended up figuring out that I really did have a passion for research, and that's essentially what drew me back in.

Rob: I'm fascinated to explore that whole journey from the start. But before we get there, one more question: what does it actually mean to be getting towards the end of a PhD program?

Guest: For me that means a lot of thesis writing. I have done a pilot trial exploring the effects of a novel virtual reality application that I've built, which uses music-supported mirror therapy to try and improve upper limb function in stroke survivors. That was a big two-to-three year development effort -- building it, testing it with stroke survivors and other professionals to make sure it's appropriate. Now I'm writing up the results in a very big book, which will be the thesis.

Rob: You and I connected recently -- I was actually visiting Flinders University about a month ago and had a chance to experience your technology firsthand. You could actually see what I was seeing inside that virtual reality headset and I was moving my hands. The idea, correct me if I'm wrong, is that this helps a stroke survivor who's recovering in rehabilitation to move in a way that essentially reprograms the brain?

Guest: Yeah, absolutely. It uses a concept called neuroplasticity, which is basically what we all have access to -- that's how we can still pick up new skills as adults. But it's really, really dominant in children in early development and directly after a traumatic brain injury like stroke. So I'm re-networking the pathways, you could say. The way I'm doing that is through mirror therapy, which is called a non-intensive motor practice. By moving one side of the body and looking at the reflection of that side on the stroke-affected side, you can actually improve the side that isn't moving, which is quite remarkable in my opinion.

Rob: It is remarkable. We'll come back to that when we loop back to talk about PhD and doctorate programs. But let's go right back to the start of your university experience.

Choosing a bachelor's degree and the flexibility of engineering at Flinders

Rob: For those people who are brand new to uni, the first qualification most people traditionally do is a bachelor's degree, sometimes called an undergraduate degree. That's the entry point for many students, though some come in through a diploma or a pathway. Thomas, tell us about your journey into uni. What did you head into as part of your undergraduate program?

Guest: A bachelor's is typically three years, but in engineering we do it a little differently. We have an honours component as basically a requirement to certify us with Engineers Australia, our major accrediting body. So everyone by default does a four-year program, including a one-year final-year honours project. As I mentioned at the start, I wanted to go one level higher and get the master's. I did that partly because I knew it had a bit more prestige associated with it and I thought it would give me a better chance to get a job. And because it was a double degree in the same field -- honours and a master's in biomed -- it actually gave me some flexibility to choose topics outside the biomedical realm, which normally you don't get because engineering programs are really tightly controlled to meet requirements from our professional bodies. So I got to go into the robotics space, which strengthened my programming ability and ultimately fed into the project I'm doing now.

Rob: Before I ask my next question, just for those watching: an honours program is typically something added on at the end of an undergraduate bachelor's degree. It's often a one-year add-on and it's essentially a piece of research, though the model differs from degree to degree and uni to uni.

Guest: Just to add to that -- outside of engineering, it's normally a competitive entry program. Generally you finish your bachelor's and then have to apply and get accepted into honours, whereas in engineering it's part of the degree. It's a different model, but it forces everyone to have a bit of research rigour associated with their degree, which you wouldn't get otherwise. I think it's a great thing.

Rob: And in some cases, like yours, you had that entry into your honours program guaranteed straight out of high school. In some cases you can go into a Bachelor of Science (Honours) as its own degree; other times you start in a Bachelor of Science and add the honours later. The uni world is complex and strange at the top to navigate, but that's how those pieces fit together. For you, Thomas, coming out of high school and committing to five years -- bachelor's, honours, and a master's -- did that feel overwhelming?

Guest: A little bit. I think what I wish I knew when I was going through school is that degrees are way more flexible than you think. You see these programs listed in the brochures and go, right, I'm committing to three, four, or five years and that's going to lock me in. But you can move in and out of those programs really, really simply. I had quite a few people who started in the five-year program and went, actually, the honours is going to be enough, and dropped down to four. They still graduated with an honours degree and went into the workforce. I had other friends who came in on the honours program and then shifted up. And I had friends who completely flipped out of biomed as well.

Guest: I think that's a real testament to the way Flinders does engineering, where we purposely have our entire first year as the same for all students. So normally you'd have very narrow topics and the moment you start specialising you lose credit if you try to transfer. Flinders basically says, we're going to show you what standard engineering -- maths, physics, programming, mechanics, and electronics -- looks like, and then from there you can decide if you're in the right degree or if you want to take a step sideways. And year on year you build in your specialty. I came into biomed with a bit of an idea that I wanted to help people using technology, but I didn't know which area. It wasn't until my second and even third year that I really nailed down that rehabilitation and assistive technology was going to be a core part of that.

How passion develops through experience, not before it

Rob: I love your story, because it's exactly what I think people need to know. Everyone's told, you've got to find your passion, you've got to figure it out. And that's actually not true for 99% of people. Your passion comes as you go along. The more you get into things, the more you discover. You get expertise, you get skills and experience, and then suddenly you find the thing and you're like, this is what lights me up. Would you agree with that?

Guest: I think it's almost impossible to know what you want to do before you've seen it. We can watch documentaries, listen to interviews like these, read articles, and think we have an idea of what professions mean. But until you're studying and then working in that space, it's really, really hard to quantify. And a lot of options you may not even hear about. When I was coming through, I had no idea what an occupational therapist was, or a music therapist. It's only now, going quite deep into my PhD, that I've realised those are professions I might have also been really interested in, had I known about them in high school.

Rob: People can just let me share a personal story on that. I did a science degree as my first degree but I was really interested in music, and I ended up finding this incredibly niche thing -- and honestly this could have been my career. There was a specialist in the world who used sound to scare birds away from airports. That was their specialty in research. This person was a consultant to every airport in the world, travelling the world and getting paid a mozza because they had a fascination around sound and music and were able to marry that with a passion for biology and wildlife. But as you're saying, how would you even have known about something so niche, let alone become interested in it, unless you were at uni?

Guest: That's right. On a similar note, I picked up piano fairly late in my schooling journey. Through work experience I tried two different things: I thought mechanical engineering sounded interesting, went to work at a mechanic's shop, and realised I do not go well with car engines. But then I worked with a piano tuner who serviced the Mid North region around Port Augusta and Port Pirie in South Australia, where I was living at the time. I think he would have liked to take me on as his protege if he'd known I wasn't already heading to engineering. But until you see it and you're there with the instruments, it's just something you can't really appreciate. My big piece of advice for anyone curious: just send an email, pick up the phone, ask someone if you can work with them for a week, and just see where it goes. It might open your eyes to something you had no idea about before.

Rob: Such great advice. Give things a go -- that's where you actually discover what you like. The things you like eventually become things you're deeply interested in, which eventually become things you're really good at and passionate about. It's not the other way around. Passion doesn't come first; it actually comes last.

Getting involved in clubs, projects, and campus life during undergrad

Rob: Let's talk about that undergraduate program. We've talked a bit about engineering, but what other things did you get involved in and what doors were open to you doing your undergraduate at Flinders?

Guest: I really like to try a lot of new things. I came from a heavy sports background -- I had a moderate athletics career in high school but realised pretty quickly, as soon as I jumped to the state level, that I was no longer competitive outside of the little country town I grew up in. But that enjoyment of sport stayed with me. I immediately went and played volleyball, tried a new team sport, and that took me through the first three years of my degree. Then I jumped into squash and absolutely fell in love with it, so much that I eventually became vice president of the Flinders Uni Racquetball Club for quite a number of years. I've actually only just let that go.

Guest: Staying a little closer to academia, I looked at the Flinders Uni Robotics Club. At the time they had this WAM-V, which was basically an autonomous surface vessel -- a boat that would carry research equipment across the water independently. You'd hit play, let it do its thing, and using sensors on board it could navigate obstacles, fire projectiles at particular targets, and rescue buoys floating around. I was involved in some of the 3D modelling and coming up with an economic way to build a floating buoy rather than buying one off the shelf. That gave me exposure outside my degree but connected me with people who've given me a lot of advice throughout the years.

Guest: And then back in the degree, I watched a documentary by Dr Jordan Nguyen, who is a biomedical engineer in the rehab and assistive tech space. He looked at a product that enabled someone with cerebral palsy -- someone who couldn't have the standard motor control we're familiar with -- to control electronic devices through eye tracking. As soon as I saw that, it was a bit of a wow moment: the body and the electrical systems within us can control different electrical systems in the real world. So I approached my now supervisor, Dr David Hobbs (now Associate Professor David Hobbs), and he gave me a project exploring that space using the mouth instead of the eyes -- what we called the Face Tracker, where different facial expressions could control a computer. That became a final-year project for someone else and eventually got commercialised. And that was the beginning of knowing I wanted to go down the rehab and assistive tech pathway.

Rob: Once again, such a great lesson. You're being proactive -- actually reaching out to people to dive deeper on things that interest you. I think most people at uni don't do that because they don't realise they can. But if there's something that interests you, just like you said, Thomas, send the email. These days with LinkedIn you can literally contact 90% of the professional world. Everybody loves being asked for advice, and if you reach out to just about anyone, people will give you the time of day.

Guest: My tip with that is to be really specific about what you liked about their work. If you just send a LinkedIn connection request without any context, it may not get looked at. But if someone says, hey Thomas, I really enjoyed your piece about music-supported therapy, I'm a musician myself and interested in that space, do you mind if we have a chat? Straight away I'm thinking, yes, that sounds fantastic. If you want to know what's going on and you've taken an obvious interest in what someone's published, they'll say yes.

Studying abroad through the New Colombo Plan

Rob: Tell me about the New Colombo Plan. We're talking about having an international study experience as part of an undergraduate degree -- and we've got a whole session on studying abroad in the session catalogue. But tell us about your experience, Thomas.

Guest: The New Colombo Plan is probably one of my favourite programs across Australia. It's set up so that Australian universities can deepen their connection with the Indo-Pacific region, and it basically means Australian university students get funded to go to a whole range of countries. The two I went to were Malaysia and Singapore, so I had a double. I was very fortunate to get a short-term three-week paid placement in Malaysia, which happened over the summer break and didn't affect my study at all. Not only did it not affect it, but it actually helped me because it took out a topic from that year. Rather than having a lighter semester to coast through, I knocked out those topics and by the time I was in my final year doing my final-year project, I could put all my attention there. It was a true gift.

Guest: Then I had a five-month work-integrated learning paid placement in Singapore. That was the first time I properly left home -- it was me and five other Flinders students at a research institution called Nanyang Polytechnic. A polytechnic in the Singaporean system is a little bit higher than a TAFE but not quite at the uni level. We were basically given a project to explore with not a lot of direction, so it was the first real self-guided learning I'd had to do. I was looking at facial recognition for a company that had launched a chip -- this was in 2019, pre the boom of AI, when this wasn't standard. It involved a lot of image processing and programming, which ultimately led to the data science work I went into. But at the time I just saw it as a new opportunity to live somewhere else, experience a different culture, and get a fresh perspective on my studies.

Rob: Just to recap for those watching: across your undergraduate bachelor's degree you've talked about getting involved in clubs and societies, reaching out to academics and doing projects with them, and studying overseas. What really resonates for me is that you've had such a rich taste of the university experience -- not just from an educational point of view, but from a life experience point of view.

Guest: Absolutely. And I think a really important thing is that I was on campus the whole time. Engineering is a pretty large study load -- we had about 20 contact hours a week and I went through pre-COVID, so the whole online model wasn't really an option anyway. We had mandatory labs. But even if I had the option to stay home knowing what I know now, there's no way I would. The same thing applies to the PhD: 90% of my work I could do at home, but I still choose to come in every day because the physical presence of being at the university and interacting with colleagues makes such a difference to your learning. We'd walk out of a lecture and say, did anyone understand what was going on here? If you don't have a network of people you can talk to outside of class, you lose so much of the university experience. The assessments and the degree you get at the end are the reason you're going, but everything that happens between those classes is actually more beneficial.

Moving into postgraduate study: honours, master's, and research

Rob: Let's move on to your master's. You've done your undergrad and then this combined honours master's, which is an interesting structure. For those watching, a postgraduate qualification is what you do after your undergraduate -- after your first graduation. That takes lots of different forms: a postgraduate diploma, a master's degree, and various other nuances. Talk about your postgraduate experience, Thomas. What was it like and how is it different to your undergraduate program?

Guest: Mine was a little bit funny because, as I mentioned, it was the five-year combined program and it was actually still an undergrad. I did a master's by coursework rather than a master's by research, so I didn't technically do a standalone honours project -- I inherited the title through the rest of my studies. I've only had one graduation so far, for the combined testament. I'll get a second when I finish the PhD, but that's how my program worked. Normally, yes, you would do an honours first, graduate, and then come back and do the master's.

Guest: For me, it was an opportunity to explore rehabilitation in a systematic way and combine my passion for music. I was studying for my rehab and assistive tech exam, looked over at my guitar, and thought: if I didn't have the level of motor function that I do, I wouldn't be able to play the guitar or the piano the way I do. There's really not a lot of instruments you can play without that ability. So I wanted to create a music platform that would enable people with less motor function to still experience the joys and benefits of music. I did that through an assistive electronic trumpet that doubled as a respiratory rehab device. When you have abdominal or thoracic surgery, you get given a device called an incentive spirometer, where you take a big breath in to clear your airways and prevent a post-operative pulmonary complication. The problem is nobody uses it as often as they're supposed to, presumably because it's really boring. I thought: if I add music to this element, people get auditory feedback as well as the visual feedback of seeing a float rise up and down. I purchased the components -- a pressure sensor, an irrigation pipe, a cheap Bluetooth module off eBay -- and basically built an app from scratch to do just that.

Rob: So the difference I'm hearing is that undergrad is much more coursework-based -- you go to classes, do assignments and assessments, and get marks for individual subjects. Once you're into the more pure postgrad space, it's about taking on a project or a problem and doing independent work and research to create a solution.

Guest: Spot on. In the undergrad space you're doing a lot of learning. In the postgrad space you're doing a lot of contributing back to the field. We come back to this idea of novelty a lot: you try to synthesise everything that exists and then add to it. It can be a substantial or what might seem a minor contribution on the outside, but the criteria is that it has to be different -- something that no one's thought about before, or an adaptation of research that's already being conducted.

Rob: What's fascinating, and most people watching this won't know this, is that this is literally how human knowledge is moved forward. We have knowledge, people learn that knowledge, and then there's this subset of people -- researchers, academics, students -- who are trying to push that knowledge further. Everyone can participate in that advancement.

Guest: And it can be so broad. We're talking a lot about science and technology here because that's both of our backgrounds, but you can do further research in any discipline. I've got friends in the humanities, arts, and social science space doing really fascinating work -- things about the way conspiracy theories evolve, or archaeology and the dating of different digs. It never ends. When I was in Year 12, I looked at all the maths and science textbooks and wondered: haven't we figured everything out by now? And then the further I went through uni, the more I realised we have a good understanding of the fundamentals, but once you start asking the really deep questions, you realise there's so much we don't know. We definitely need more people to have a research approach.

What a PhD actually involves and who it's suited to

Rob: So is it fair to say a PhD is about asking even bigger questions?

Guest: Absolutely. There's a graphic I've seen that shows a circle representing general human knowledge, which gets bigger and bigger, but the PhD focuses on one point and goes tinier and tinier. You become the expert in that one space. That doesn't mean you're a generalist who can answer questions about anything, but in the area you've studied, you know more than anyone else in the world at the time you publish -- either because you've created something new or because you've discovered something no one else has put forward. And that's quite an exciting thing.

Rob: A friend of mine did her PhD on learning abroad -- student exchange outcomes -- and she's literally one of the world experts on that topic. Even a decade later, people are still coming to her for advice and insights. It's that kind of domain expertise that sticks.

Guest: And even if you decide to move out of research, the skills -- the critical thinking, the analytical design, knowing how to conduct and evaluate good research -- are something that will stay with you forever. There's no need to think it's only worth doing a PhD if you're going to become an academic. I actually came in with the assumption I'd take my PhD and run and go straight back to industry, because I didn't see myself in this path. Now that I'm getting towards the end, I'm realising there are a lot of questions about my exact topic that I'd love to delve into further. But at the end of the day I knew I wanted whatever I built to be out in the real world, which means being in the commercial space in some capacity.

Advice for students and parents deciding how far to go with study

Rob: Thomas, looking back on all the experiences you've had, how would you summarise the journey for someone trying to decide whether to go into university for the first time, or figuring out how far they might need to go?

Guest: Something I see time and time again as a student ambassador representing the College of Science and Engineering at Flinders is parents asking the questions on behalf of the student. You look at the student and go: I'm not sure you actually want to do the degree your parents think you do. That's probably my biggest piece of advice -- you have to be not just happy but excited by the prospect of working in your field for a long time. Really look at all the options. Stay curious, ask as many questions as you can, and feel free to switch. If you start a degree and think this isn't anything like I was promised or had in my head, don't finish a degree just because you started it. You can move into a different programme or leave the university entirely and explore something else. Work-life balance and satisfaction is something we're moving towards in a really positive way now, where you don't have to do a job just because it's what you qualified in.

Guest: And as we've said: show up to your classes and engage as best you can. University is something where very literally, the more you put in, the more you get out. In the age of AI, it's very easy to take shortcuts and get a synthesis of knowledge, and it's up to you whether you actually want that. In the late stage of my PhD, when I was quite tight on my timeline, I made the decision to use AI to help me with some of the programming. I did that in an informed way, acknowledging that I could already program and was using AI as a speed booster. But if I hadn't already built those foundations, that would have been a terrible approach -- I would have missed out on the critical learnings of how to actually think and code the way I needed to. Use AI responsibly, and make sure you are choosing what you want to learn, because that will govern everything in the next stages of your life.

Rob: I'm glad you raised it -- and this wasn't pre-arranged, but we've actually got some great sessions on how to use AI as part of this virtual expo, including sessions with the University of New England on using it in your study, AI fundamentals, AI safety, and how AI is impacting the workforce. If you're interested in that space, it's literally going to affect every degree and every area of work over the next decade, so I really recommend honing in on those sessions. And one more thing you said about changing: one third of people will never work in a job that relates to their first degree. I did a science degree and have never worked in science outside of uni. Does that mean it was a waste? No -- I use the skills from that degree every single day. When people say uni is not worth it anymore, that's absolute rubbish. It gives you fundamental skills you will use literally every day of your life.

Guest: I wholeheartedly agree. Using myself as an example: I went into my double biomed engineering degree thinking I'd be hired by all the top biomed companies in Australia. Couldn't find one straight out of uni. So I went a little broader and looked in the data science space, ending up working for a company called Consilium Technology. I went into some of those roles thinking this isn't the industry I studied, but once I got into the data I went: this is so interesting, I just want to learn more. And that's something university teaches you -- how to learn, and then you get to apply those skills. My first boss said, we didn't hire you because you know how to do data science. We hired you because of your capacity and willingness to learn. Working in a consultancy is a really good opportunity to get exposed to a number of different fields, and you transfer learnings between them. Just because you see something in mining, agriculture, or defence doesn't mean it won't be helpful in the human body space or another application entirely.

The biggest lessons from doing a PhD: persistence and self-directed research

Rob: I want to hone in on your PhD for those watching who have done undergrads and are thinking about a doctorate program, or parents who are tempted by a PhD or doctorate themselves. What's the biggest thing you've learned as part of your PhD program?

Guest: I'll go more on the process side. A lot of people have this assumption that you have to be superintelligent to do a PhD. You have to have a degree of intelligence, no doubt, but it's persistence that is the key thing determining whether you make it through or not. It's a hard few years. You're being a project manager for three to four years on something that is truly and uniquely yours.

Guest: There are two schools of thought about what kind of PhD program you enter. One is where a supervisor already has a project in mind, probably already has funding, and will be very heavily invested in that project. If you go down that path, you'll be well supported and probably move quicker, but it might not be super aligned with your interests. The other option is you come in with a blue-sky idea to a potential supervisor and say, this is something that deeply interests me -- and that's the path I went down. That meant I had to secure my own funding. In my first 18 months I won nearly $40,000 worth of research funding, and I had to manage all the recruitment pathways because it wasn't something my principal supervisor was already working in. But that whole experience has given me the confidence to think: I can take this further, I can lead a company in this area, because I've done it all -- the admin, the ethics applications, the programming. I know everything about this application, which I wouldn't have had if I was part of a larger team. There are pros and cons to both models, but persistence and broad learning across different domains is what gets you through.

Rob: What's next for you?

Guest: I really want to see the virtual reality application I've built in the hands -- and the homes -- of as many stroke survivors as possible, and then more broadly in spaces beyond stroke. I built it as a way for stroke survivors and people who had lost function to regain or experiment with music in a new way, but I want it to go into the pure mainstream domain. There will be some research and some commercialisation in there, but trying to have more people experience music is my goal.

Rob: I love it. Thomas, thank you so much for joining me at the National Virtual Expo. It's been a pleasure to hear about your whole journey through university right to the end. On behalf of everyone watching, good luck for those last critical moments -- getting through your thesis submission. A thesis, for those who don't know, is a very long research report, a bit like writing a book. Good luck writing your book and getting it out into the world. You can be very proud of your journey, and personally I'm looking forward to following along as you go from that into whatever comes next.

Guest: Thank you very much, Rob. It's been an absolute pleasure and I'm looking forward to staying in touch.