Introducing the guest and her path into law

Rob: Welcome to the National Virtual Expo. Thanks for joining me. Very excited to be here.

Guest: Thanks for having me.

Rob: I'm really pumped for this conversation because I'm sure there are plenty of people joining us today live, and who will be watching back on the recording, who are interested in going and studying law, maybe becoming a lawyer, but might not actually know what it is like in real life to study and to work. Before we get on to all that, tell me a little bit about you, how you ended up becoming a lawyer, your backstory.

Guest: Of course. I have been working at LegalVision for a bit over a year now. I started as a law graduate, and then I became a lawyer in December of last year. So I have only been a lawyer for a little while, but I have been doing the day-to-day as a lawyer for over a year now. Personally, I really enjoy reading. I'm a big fan of fantasy books, actually. Brandon Sanderson is one of my favourites. I also like board games with friends, watching movies, going on walks. I have a little ragdoll cat who is the light of my world. And personally, I really enjoy strategy, which is kind of why I got into law. I really liked analytical thinking, and that was also encapsulated in my interests in history in high school. I think that really transferred into me going into law.

Rob: Were you one of those people who always knew you wanted to be a lawyer, or did that come to you later?

Guest: I got to about fourth or fifth year of school and I definitely did not know what it was going to look like, and then I changed my mind. Doubt is very common. I know that some people know straight away what they want to do, but I took forever to figure out what I wanted to do. At one point I was like, I just want to get into it, I want to see what it is like in practice. And once I did that, I learned to love it. I think there is a real difference between studying and actually doing the work, and I found that was really exciting.

Why doubt is normal, and how study differs from practice

Rob: Tell me about that. I have actually got two questions for you. The first is, why did you have those doubts in fourth and fifth year? And then secondly, that difference between work and study.

Guest: I think the doubts were to do with me being a perfectionist. Everyone goes through this a little, having that imposter syndrome effect where you think, can I really exceed everyone else who is really smart? Not that I don't think I'm smart, but I was worried about making mistakes and not feeling confident, and that was really holding me back. I was also wondering whether I just wanted to go into more of a business role and do something specific to one business, then move into senior management, because I really like working with businesses and understanding the strategy and motivations behind that. But eventually I ended up at LegalVision and I'm really happy.

Rob: You said that studying is very different from the actual work. In what way?

Guest: With studying, you are really expected to know the case law and the law itself. Of course you still need that day to day when working, but it is less about memorisation and more about application. You still do research day to day when working in law, but the main thing is that you have the fundamentals down and can apply them to a specific client. Whereas when you study law, it is more about memorising principles, with a bit less of that application. You still do problem questions where you are expected to analyse the law and say how to apply it in a specific instance, but you do not get as much nuance about what you should be recommending to the client. It is more of a third-person point of view, which made it a bit harder for me to connect with what I was doing.

What kind of person is well suited to a legal career

Rob: Knowing what you know now, what kind of person would be well suited to becoming a lawyer? I want to preface that a little bit, because I think it is one of those areas where some people from a very young age are like, I am going to be a lawyer, and there is a lot of pressure on people, whether from family or elsewhere, to get into law school. But the reality out in the workforce can be very different. So who would be well suited to this pathway?

Guest: I think as long as you have the drive to want to do a good job and you are interested in law, I think you can do it. I think we need more people from different backgrounds, and people who are interested but perhaps feel a bit of doubt, because that is how we enrich the profession and get more perspectives. So really, if you enjoy analysing, if you have a strategic mindset, if you like conversing with clients and getting to understand their needs and helping people, a lot of people really love knowing that they are assisting someone. For me, I work in commercial law, helping businesses with their commercial needs. But in other areas of law, you might be helping someone on an individual basis who is really in need of assistance and is having one of the most stressful times of their life. So you are kind of like a lighthouse to them, to guide them through those times. A lot of people find that really fulfilling.

Rob: I must say, I have been working with LegalVision now for about 18 months, and I would just like to explain the connection for people who are watching. LegalVision are my representatives for our organisation. We have a subscription model, so I get unlimited support around what I need as a business owner and as an organisation. It has been so reassuring. We have not been sued or anything, but you have got business questions, contract questions, strategy questions, and having that expertise to reach out to has been phenomenal for taking stress off. If I have got a contract I need someone to look over, I can hand it off and get great advice.

Guest: That is amazing. You are taking the stress off the shoulders of a small organisation. I do love the model where clients can come to us, ask their questions, and we can respond. It feels a lot more personal, and you do not have to worry about the clock ticking while we are thinking about your needs.

Do you need to be a good public speaker to be a lawyer?

Rob: Coming back to who would be well suited for law, and some of the stereotypes: do you have to be a good public speaker in order to be a good lawyer?

Guest: It is a part of it, but personally I am not the best at public speaking, and it is something I am looking to improve on. Certainly if you are looking to go into a courtroom, or to become a barrister, it is more important. But if you are working like I do, with businesses or with individual clients, it is something you would work on, but you are not expected to be perfect straight away. So it really should not hold you back. Take it on board as something you can work on and see where the opportunities arise to practise. It is one of those things where you just need to do it day to day to eventually build the skill. And there are other aspects that might be more suited to your skills as well. We do a lot of written advice and work on communicating in plain English, for example. That is another difference from law school, where you use legal jargon, as opposed to communicating with clients where you just need to explain things clearly.

Rob: That is very true, and both things are worth noting. The legal jargon translating into plain English, and here is a secret hint for those watching: that is a plus in most jobs, to be honest. People who do best are people who can take complex concepts and make them accessible. And the public speaking piece is a trainable skill. Even if you are a bit of an introvert and you are worried about dealing with clients, these are all things you learn in the workforce. But maybe thinking about being in law school, can you talk a little bit about that experience, for example moot courts, debating, the kind of skills development you do as you go through university?

Guest: There are definitely opportunities to do mooting at university. I did very little of it. I did some training on it but decided not to pursue it further, which maybe I should have. For anyone who is not familiar, mooting is essentially a mock trial where you have a challenge, and oftentimes there are actual judges. You are arguing a case against another side, where the opposing team are also law students, and you stand up and present. It is quite similar to debating in the sense that you have different speakers, but you are debating a legal question in a trial context.

Rob: And with mooting you have the opportunity to do that not only inside your university, but there are competitions across Australia and global competitions where you might actually be able to travel and debate against students from around the world. It is brilliant. I think it is one of the most exciting things about being a law student.

Guest: Definitely.

Which high school subjects help, and how broad a law degree really is

Rob: In terms of school, let's hone in on students who are in high school now and who might be interested in studying law. How relevant is what they are doing now to studying and eventually working in law?

Guest: I think the main thing is that you learn how to think like a lawyer. So if you are doing English, history, or social studies, you are learning skills that can transfer. With English there are a lot of analytical skills. History is about understanding cause and effect. And it is a bit surprising, but law is very logical. A lot of people think you just come up with an argument and try to confuse your opponents, but when you get down to basics it is: what is the law, how can this be interpreted, and what does this mean? So it really is cause and effect. If you are doing Legal Studies, it teaches you basic skills that can help you in first year of law school. I personally did not do Legal Studies, but friends who did found it helped them a lot with our first-year subject, which was Foundations of Law. But once you get into uni, you will find a lot more things, and it is not necessarily the case that you need to have done Legal Studies in high school.

Rob: I also love what you were saying earlier, which was that you were actually considering not becoming a lawyer and were thinking about going into business. And I think that is quite an exciting opportunity, because in fact the law applies everywhere across society, from businesses to everyday life. So the core skills you get from studying law can apply in such a wide context, can they not?

Guest: Yes. A lot of politicians start off with a law degree, and it transfers to any sort of business role. I think a law degree is a valuable thing and something that stands out. There is some degree of prestige around studying law, but more importantly, the skills you learn in how to analyse, how to think, and how to communicate can be transferred to a really wide range of roles.

Does the prestige of your university actually matter in the workforce?

Rob: I want to ask about the prestige factor without it sounding too negative or positive, so I will just get it out. When we think about law, there is this prestige around which university you attend. In Sydney, if you want to study law, you want to get into Sydney Law. In Melbourne, it is the University of Melbourne. But is that prestige real once you are out in the workforce?

Guest: It might matter a little bit when you are first applying for roles, but honestly, I have no idea where half my colleagues went to university. So it is really not relevant once you are in. It is more of an advantage to get through the gates initially, and there might be a bit of collegiate mentality around having attended the same university, but beyond that, if you have the skills and the learning, which you can get at whatever university you attend, that is the main thing. I personally do not believe that going to a university other than the University of Sydney or a similar institution should hold you back all that much.

Rob: I think in a lot of fields, there is this perception that you need to go to a particular university in order to succeed in life, and in Australia I think that is almost universally nonsense. What is way more important is that once you are at university, it is not just about what you study in the classroom, it is what you do outside as well. You are nodding, so you agree?

Guest: Definitely. I did not take advantage of all the opportunities available to me. I think I could have done mooting, for example. But if you can show that you have been really involved at university, then those people skills look really great on paper, and that is something you can advertise when applying for legal jobs.

Rob: I have seen it many, many times. If you get involved in the Law Society, do some mooting, do a student exchange, take a leadership programme, or volunteer, all those experiences you build around your degree matter enormously. Let us say you went to the University of Western Sydney and did law, and you competed against a UQ law graduate. Maybe the UQ brand helped that person slightly. But if your resume shows you have been involved in all these other things, as someone who has employed many people over the years, that is going to make me way more interested in you as a candidate than just where you went.

Guest: Definitely agree. And the sense I get from talking with people in my team and my manager is that they are looking for people who have the skills, who can speak with people, and who are well-rounded. It is not about whether you went to a prestigious university. Good people are everywhere.

Practical Legal Training and the College of Law

Rob: If you are thinking about law, do not feel like your only option is one of the big-brand universities. Any law degree essentially ends up with the same qualification, and you still have to complete the College of Law afterwards, which is your practical training. Do you want to speak a little bit about that?

Guest: Sure. A lot of people do not know about the College of Law and what is called Practical Legal Training. Once you finish your degree, if you want to become a lawyer you need to complete it. You can do it part-time or full-time. I chose to do it part-time so I could work at the same time, and it takes about six months or so. You go through different subjects, much like at university, but really focused on learning the practical skills relevant to your area of law. We started with general skills such as how to negotiate, which was very useful because I had no idea how to do that. We also did a mock trial where we had to stand up and give appearances, which is where you introduce yourself, state what the matter is, and explain what you are seeking. Then we went through individual subjects, for example property law, learning how to do PEXA documents and the conveyancing process when selling a property. So it was really a case of figuring out the day-to-day of what you would be doing if you worked in that specific area. It was pretty helpful.

What a typical week looks like as a commercial lawyer

Rob: What is life actually like as a lawyer day to day?

Guest: For me personally, I have twelve scheduled calls a week with clients. Sometimes I do not need the calls if they know what they want and we can just communicate by email. I figure out what instructions they are giving me, get a bit of background about what they are trying to do, and then provide next steps. That might be drafting documents for them, or reviewing a document that another party has given them. We work a lot in the NDIS space, so we might draft services agreements for participants who are receiving supports and need to sign an agreement with their service provider. We also work a lot in the software-as-a-service space, so we might draft terms and conditions or review terms from the other side. A lot of our work is also around privacy, so we draft privacy policies and give privacy advice. So really it is a lot of drafting, reviewing documents, and giving advice.

Rob: I am thinking about day-to-day life and the perception from shows like Suits, where lawyers are in the office at seven in the morning and leaving at eight at night. Is that real?

Guest: I think it can happen sometimes, but the majority of the time, and it also depends where you work, at LegalVision that is not expected of you. You definitely still have a work-life balance. You might be expected to work overtime if something particular needs to go out, but it is reasonable. A lot of the time, if I do stay late, it is because I want to do a good job and make sure I get it right. We are nominally eight-thirty to five-thirty but not expected to adhere strictly to that. People start at three o'clock or nine o'clock, and that is fine. We do get out of the office before it gets dark, which I would say is like a perfect workplace.

Rob: There is this perception not just about law having crazy hours, but there are definitely certain types of organisations where that is true. If you go into a grad programme at one of the big four consulting companies, you are going to be doing long hours and working really hard. That is for a certain type of person. For those watching, you have got to think about what is going to work for you and your life. I think what you said is very true: it is probably less about the industry and more about the organisation you are going into, and also what you want from the career you are trying to build.

Guest: Definitely. And that is another reason I was unsure about working in law, because I wanted to have a work-life balance and was not sure whether that would be doable. But having an organisation that actually cares about your wellbeing is really important to me, and I imagine it is to a lot of students as well. You will find those kinds of companies if you look for them, places like LegalVision where it is a great work environment, not just about doing the work.

How AI is changing legal work and what it means for future lawyers

Rob: We are running close to time, but I really wanted to ask you about AI and its impact on law. As part of this National Virtual Expo, we are covering a number of sessions on AI and technology, how it is impacting the workforce and careers. Law is obviously one of those areas where AI can be useful. Can you give us some insight into what you are seeing now that you are in the workforce, about how AI is changing the work and what it might mean for people watching who are considering a career in law?

Guest: Definitely. AI is speeding up a lot of routine processes. For example, we might use it to do an initial document review, identify some key risks, and then cross-check that to make sure it is accurate. Because it is still an emerging technology, it is prone to hallucinations, which is when it makes up something that is not there, or it might miss a detail as well. It is really useful as a starting point and as a tool to help with day-to-day reviewing, and you can also use it to draft clauses or review errors in a client document. As long as you are working in conjunction with it, it can be really useful. There is some anxiety that it is going to take over graduate roles, and I do feel that. But I think we are still at the stage where you need human lawyers who understand the law. As it gets more developed and more accurate, you just need to stand out with people skills. Being able to say, here is what the AI pulled out about this document, but this one clause is actually a major concern for this specific client because I know their business and their context, and I can provide really tailored advice. That is where human lawyers remain essential.

Rob: That is so insightful. I am thinking about the technology space, right? People are saying software engineers are not going to exist anymore. It is certainly true that developers are not really writing code from scratch anymore, and I can go online now and create an entire app just by entering a prompt. But the difference is that I do not know what is under the hood of what has been generated. And I think law is probably similar. Yes, I could ask an AI to write me a contract, but when I look at it, I have no idea what the risks are or what is missing. Having skilled experts who can look at that and understand it remains relevant for a very, very long time to come.

Guest: Exactly. AI does speed things up and can make things more efficient. A lot of clients do use AI before they come to us, and that is fine, because it can be a useful tool for understanding how contracts work. But as you mentioned, if you do not know what is missing, or if there are things in there that should not be there at all, that is where we can help.

Rob: And remember, all business and all work, to some extent, is human to human at the end of the day. Even if you are working solo doing your research, at some point you need to show that to other humans and interact with them. So even if technology can take care of some of this, I really believe the future is around those human skills: entrepreneurship, negotiation, persuasion. And having that core understanding of how our entire system works, which law gives you, is an incredible advantage going forward. My guest has been from LegalVision. Thank you so much for joining me at the National Virtual Expo. It has been great chatting with you.

Guest: Chatting with you has been wonderful. Thank you for having me.