Welcome and the surprising breadth of science careers

Rob: G'day, and welcome to the National Virtual Expo and this session on building the career of your dreams. My name is Rob Malicki. I'm coming straight from Garigal land in Sydney, and I'm acknowledging those traditional owners and other custodians. I'm really pumped about this session because my guest is Maddie Massey. Maddie is a science communicator and presenter with a background in medical research. Maddie now connects people with the science that underpins all of our lives, and she's a presenter on TV shows including Playschool and Sunrise, hosts science segments on ABC radio, and shares her educational content on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. But what's incredible about Maddie is how she has built a career that she's absolutely passionate about. It's not conventional, but she's set herself up for a truly incredible future, and I think her story will genuinely inspire you. So without further ado, let's sit on the couch and chat with Maddie Massey. Maddie Massey, welcome to the National Virtual Expo. Thanks for joining me.

Guest: Thank you. Super good to be here.

Rob: I'm such a fan of the career that you're building for yourself. Maybe by way of getting started -- you have seen so many different facets of science through the work that you do. Could you tell me what's the weirdest, or the funniest, or most interesting career that you've seen somebody building for themselves in the science field?

Guest: That's a really good question. I feel like I've seen and done a lot of really interesting things, but I think it was when I was working on Playschool last year that I saw this really cool job. There was one lady who is a STEM education advisor for TV shows. She basically has a really good understanding of different STEM skills and areas of knowledge that kids can learn, and she helps to advise on scriptwriting. She also sits in while shows are being filmed to give advice on how to best communicate different concepts to kids. So I was presenting on Playschool on a few different science segments, and she was sitting there next to the director making notes and occasionally giving us feedback. I thought that was super cool.

Rob: It's interesting, isn't it? And this is what I was really hoping we'd get to in this conversation, so I'm glad it came up so early. People think about science and they picture working in a lab, dripping things into test tubes and beakers. But it's just vast, isn't it?

Guest: Yeah, it's a lot more than what people think. When I first started out studying science, I also thought it was just lab-based -- that to work in science, you had to be a researcher in the lab, playing around with test tubes and petri dishes. But I think science and STEM more broadly is just a way of thinking and problem solving. It's collecting information about the world, analysing that, and looking at it from different angles to answer questions and solve problems. You can do that as a research scientist, but you could also do it as an educator, or like me as a presenter and a communicator, or there are just myriad other jobs that have this element in them.

Rob: So true. And even the management of science -- you still need people to run the business of science, whether that's the commercialisation of different elements or literally looking after human resources. If you're interested in science, it doesn't mean you have to be in the lab. You just have this option to engage with it in many different fields and find your place.

Guest: That's right. I was just at a conference where I met a lot of people working on the business and commercialisation side of science. Some of them have a background in research -- they studied science at uni, worked in labs, and then moved into that space. And then some of them studied business and commerce and entered through that pathway. So you don't necessarily have to enter the field the same way as everyone else, which is really cool.

How Maddie's passion for science communication began

Rob: One of the things I've admired about you and your career is how you found this area you're really passionate about -- science communication -- but you've been really methodical about how you built that career. Maybe we could start by you explaining how you became a science communicator. How did you get passionate about this area?

Guest: I've been interested in science communication since I was a little kid, actually. My parents subscribed to National Geographic -- this science magazine -- and I remember reading it when I was about 12 years old and seeing a story about Neanderthals, which are an ancient humanoid species. Scientists had found a bunch of their bones and remains in a cave and reconstructed how they lived, what they looked like, what they ate, what they did -- just from that. I thought it was so cool because science was being used to tell a story about the past. I was also obsessed with writing and being creative and doing plays and things like that, so I was like, how do you combine these two things?

Guest: It took a little while to figure out that was science communication and that it could be a career. It wasn't until probably the end of my postgraduate study at uni. I went to uni and studied biology, then did a master's degree looking into cancer research. I always loved presenting and talking about my research to other people, and I entered a few science communication competitions and just loved it. I was like, how do I make this happen? So I started making videos on Instagram about my research, just explaining it to my family and friends. The first one got about 10,000 views and I was like, whoa. There were all these people commenting and asking questions, and I thought it was so cool. So I just kept making videos -- a few hundred over a few years. It's a really long process, just getting better at creating videos and presenting and explaining things. The first few were really rough, and then I got better. And then I decided I really wanted to take a chance and actually do this full time somehow.

Guest: I ended up cold-calling the ABC. There's a TV show called Catalyst on the ABC, which I always enjoyed watching as a kid. I asked them if I could please have a job -- please give me a chance. They said no the first time. But I kept doing this for about a year, and eventually they said, okay, you can have a job behind the scenes, just helping run the show. Very low level, very entry level. But I was so excited. I started working there and then, over time, got more and more involved and transitioned to presenting on TV instead of just being in the background, which I love. And it's what I do now.

Rob: For clarity, was that a paid role? Was it voluntary to start with?

Guest: It was paid. Though I will clarify -- a lot of the time when you're exploring a new career area, particularly one like science communication where it is a little bit more unconventional, it can be helpful to volunteer, to do internships that are unpaid or alongside other work or study that you might have happening, because it really helps you get experience. I did do a lot of volunteering of my time, going to different events and offering to speak at things, and I think that really helped me to hone my skills in a low-pressure way.

Why passion alone isn't enough to build a career

Rob: What you've said is so important, because we hear so much about people needing to follow their passion -- and that's true, finding things you care about and love matters. But that in its own right isn't enough to actually turn it into a career. Particularly if it's something that's really popular or in demand -- becoming an influencer or being on TV -- these are competitive fields, and you have to build up that suite of experience and skills in order to be more valuable than the next person and get through the door.

Guest: Absolutely. I selected a career -- presenting, being on TV, being a social media creator -- which a lot of people are interested in doing, so there is a lot of competition. One of the ways I've made myself really competitive and made it sustainable is by having lots of experience that was initially unpaid, just to show that I have a lot of different skills and a lot of different connections. Another thing I'd say in a career like this is not to put all your eggs in one basket. I do presenting work for the ABC, but I also work with a few different TV channels, I do social media work, speaking gigs, and I help consult with science organisations about communication. There are all sorts of different things that I do, which is really important to make a sustainable career in this particular field.

Taking calculated risks and having a backup plan

Rob: A few moments ago you talked about taking a risk. How important do you think it is to take calculated risks if you're looking to build a really exciting, different kind of career?

Guest: Really important. I wouldn't be in this position today if I hadn't taken some major risks. I went down a pretty traditional pathway -- leaving school, studying science at uni, then going into postgraduate science. That's a pretty standard funnel for people to get into academia and research. And then I just realised in my postgraduate studies that it wasn't for me. I was thinking about leaving, and I remember getting advice from my supervisor and other people in the field. They were like, I don't think it makes sense for you to leave now -- you've invested so much time in this, and science communication, what even is that and how can you make that work? But I just thought to myself, if I don't try this, I'll always be wondering about it. And the longer I wait, maybe the harder it would be to take that risk because I'll be more established in whatever I'm doing. So I think being young is a great time to take risks. But you can also take risks at any time. You can change direction and do something new.

Guest: Something that really helped me was having backup plans. When I decided to go into science communication full time, I had built up some savings and planned out how much I needed to support myself for a certain amount of time. I gave myself a deadline -- if I can't find paid work or something more sustainable within this time frame, then I'm going to get an actual normal job. That really helped because it gave me a clear window where I was like, okay, this is what I'm going to create an opportunity from.

Rob: I'll share one of my own personal stories. When I was in my late 20s -- so once again, you don't have to do it straight out of school, you've got time -- my wife and I had been thinking about starting our own business or going travelling to South America for six months. In the end we were like, let's start the business, because we could always go travelling later. As it turned out, that business took off and became a multimillion dollar business, sending thousands of people around the world on overseas study experiences. We did take that risk, but we always had something in our back pocket. I like to think of it as doors -- you're always opening different doors, and different doors are always opening for you throughout your career. Sometimes you look through one and you're like, no, I don't want to do that, and you close it and move to the next one. People are sometimes crippled by the fear of loss -- what's behind the other doors? But all you can do is keep going forward right now. Maybe one day you can go back and try something else, but you've got to be exploring all the time.

Guest: Absolutely. I feel really lucky to have all these different options and directions throughout my career because I have skills in science, in communication and journalism, in presenting, in social media -- all these different areas I could work in. Sometimes I do get a bit of FOMO, or someone approaches me about a job and I'm like, oh, that looks really cool. But then a few months go by and I'm in this incredible place, having just achieved something I'm really proud of, and I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I stuck with this. So I think life is long and there's time to explore these different things. There might be an option that looks really enticing right now, but maybe give it a bit of time and it may not be as enticing later anyway.

What it's like to be on live TV -- and how to recover from mistakes

Rob: What's it like to be on TV?

Guest: I'm pretty used to it now. The first few times it happened I was really nervous and excited -- oh my gosh, what if I mess up? My first ever scene, I didn't even have lines. I was just smiling and walking in a straight line for a scene about facial expressions, for a science show. I remember being so scared -- what if I walk in a weird direction, or what if I fall over? And now I go on TV quite a lot and it feels like a normal, everyday occurrence. It's funny how with your career you start doing something and you think you'll never get used to it, but you do.

Rob: Can I ask one more thing about the TV side? Pre-recording is more forgiving because if you fluff your lines or make a mistake, you go back and do it again. But live is something different altogether, isn't it? Do you feel a level of extra pressure when the red light is blinking at you?

Guest: I want to say I'm not quite 100% used to that yet. I started doing live TV last year -- I do a segment on Channel Seven's Sunrise from time to time. The first time I did it, I actually did say the wrong thing. I was essentially trying to reassure people about a concern they had, and instead of saying "reassuring" I said "alarming." So I said, "this is alarming." The presenters looked at me, and they fortunately rescued me -- they were like, you mean not alarming? And I was like, yeah. I was overthinking it so much afterward. I was like, oh no, I'm never going to get invited back. This is terrible. But then it was all fine. They said, oh, this happens all the time -- people slip up with words, and that's just what happens on live TV. I did it again and again after that and slowly got less nervous. Live TV definitely has room for mistakes, but generally if you're doing an interview or working with a host, they will step in and help you out because they're used to that sort of thing happening.

Rob: And that's the thing about working with professionals -- they're so relaxed in that environment. They're in the moment, listening to you, and when they see you've made a mistake they just pull it up. And as a viewer, it actually feels natural because we know it's a stressful environment.

Guest: Totally. You can be really hard on yourself when you're giving a performance on stage, on TV, or on radio. You can be your own worst critic. Sometimes I'll finish a segment and message the family group chat -- did you guys hear the way I said that thing? Was that joke a bit awkward? And they're like, no, that was fine, I didn't even notice that. One thing I try and remind myself when I'm presenting is that I might be overthinking what I'm doing and how I'm coming across, but for the most part, people are just thinking about themselves -- what groceries do they need, or what information I'm presenting. They're rarely thinking about me. I read this beautiful quote in a book: "You would worry far less about what people think of you if you realised just how little they actually did."

Rob: I'm just going to leave that hanging for a second. It's a truism -- because we are the centre of our own universe, we're like, oh, is my lapel straight? Nobody notices. Nobody cares. We're all just doing our own thing.

Guest: Exactly. Nobody pays as much attention to us as we do to ourselves.

Overcoming the fear of failure and keeping going

Rob: That leads nicely to my next question, which is around failure. You've said several times in this conversation that you've tried things and they didn't necessarily work out, that you've taken risks. Even looking at your Instagram, you've put up videos that had barely any views and others that had thousands and thousands. Tell me about that process, because I personally think it's so critical for people to get through the fear of failure -- the magic is just one Instagram post away or one job application away. How does your mindset work when it comes to putting out a piece of content that flops and moving on?

Guest: I've had a lot of opportunities for failure, and I'm so thankful for that. Some of my most memorable early experiences with this were actually from a job I did back at uni -- I was a children's entertainer, dressing up as a Disney character, a princess, or a witch, singing songs to kids and doing magic tricks. But I learned really quickly that some kids at some parties just don't believe you're the character and don't want to play with you. You walk in and you're like, "Hi, I'm Anna," with this silly wig on, and the kids just look at you. That was mortifying, and it happened so many times. I just had to keep going because that was the job. Every time it happened, I learned a bit more about getting into character and making the most of something that isn't going so well.

Guest: There were other times at the start of my science communication career -- yes, I was starting out on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. When you first start putting content out there, you have to just do it, and it will usually flop because you're just building up your audience. I had videos with basically no views and I felt so embarrassed. I was like, all my friends can see I've made this video and it's got no views. But I just kept persisting, for years, because I was convinced that it would somehow one day work out. And it has. When you fail at something, usually the worst that happens is your ego gets a little bruised and your work has a bit less impact than you were wanting. The worst case scenario is that no one sees the thing you've made. That's okay. And the best case scenario is that people see it and they love it. I just don't think you can succeed without messing up a lot. Every person I know who has done really cool things in their life and career has just been fearless about taking risks. They've had some embarrassing moments and had some people talk them down -- and that's just what happens when you do cool things.

Work ethic: the real engine behind an unconventional career

Rob: What I wanted to hone in on, Maddie, is work ethic -- the work ethic of chasing something that you believe in. You talked about continuing to create social media posts even when you'd had a whole bunch of quiet years. Tell me about your work ethic and what drives that.

Guest: Work ethic has been a huge element of my success. I was definitely not an overnight success -- it took a lot of years of groundwork.

Rob: Overnight success -- five years in the making, right?

Guest: Exactly. A lot of people I've met who are really successful content creators or well-known on TV -- it might seem like they had an overnight success and suddenly exploded, but they have been doing the groundwork for years before that. I do not know a single person who has just fallen into it and had it all be perfect. One thing that underlies my work ethic and motivation is that I really believe communication is a powerful tool to help people and help society, and I think I'm really good at it. This is what I'm here to do, and it's the best way I can contribute to our world. So every time I'm doing it, I feel like I'm really just doing what I'm meant to be doing. I didn't always have that feeling with other jobs and things I was studying -- I was trying really hard but just not sure if I cared enough or if it was for me. But I really know that science communication is for me.

Guest: It was really challenging to build this career because I had to do a lot of work outside of the usual 9 to 5. Sometimes I thought, are these hours actually contributing to any progress? Because I was making videos and volunteering for free for maybe three or four years before I really started to get traction and get paid for things. I spent pretty much most evenings and weekends after my actual job just making videos and researching and writing. That was hard -- I was in my early-to-mid 20s and a lot of the time my friends were out having fun on the weekend and I was at my laptop just doing work. But now it's all paying off. I'm in a position where I can take the weekends off and do fun stuff in the evenings with my friends, because I've established myself enough that I don't have to grind constantly. So it was worth it in the end.

Rob: I think that's such a good lesson. We all see the shiny objects -- the stuff we want to have, the places we want to be. Particularly early in your career, you can see everyone who's further down the path doing all these amazing things, and you just want it. But there is just this element where you've got to work for it. If you want something, you've got to work for it -- and honestly, you've got to work harder than the next person. Something I always try to keep in the back of my mind running a business is: there could be somebody else who wants to do this too. So I've got to want it more than the next person and do the work to actually get there.

Guest: That's such a good point. I think people can fall into a trap in their work where they go, I have to be the most talented one, the most magnetic person, the coolest one, the best natural presenter -- like I have to be born with it somehow. That means if you don't have a natural knack for something, you feel like you can't get there. I feel like I was not born with any specific special talent for science communication. It's just something I really love doing and think is important, and I've worked really hard at it. The reason I get booked for all these jobs now is because I work really hard. Every shoot I go to, I've learned the whole script, including other people's lines. I make my housemates run lines with me. I think about it constantly and I just overprepare because there's one thing I can control here -- it's not my baseline level of talent or my appearance, which are things people compare in the entertainment industry. But I can control how much work I put in and how hard I really try. And that's how I can be the best.

Where to find Maddie and final reflections

Rob: I'd love this conversation to go on and on because it's so interesting. I think that's a nice point to finish on, though -- really focusing on what you can control in your own career. Maddie, where can people find you? I love the work that you put out, and honestly, you're an inspiration. You're still relatively early in your career, and in ten years, just how much you're going to be dominating your space -- I can't wait to see it. Where can people find you if they want to look you up?

Guest: Thank you. I'm on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube, and I also have a website -- it's just my name. You can Google me and you'll find me pretty easily. I love to connect with anybody, and I hope you enjoy the weird science videos. Thanks so much for having me at the National Virtual Expo.

Rob: Thanks so much for joining me, Maddie.